Virtua Fighter 5 REVO · v1.10 · Region: Asia
ちまお
Elo rating
Overall, and on each character played 10+ times1854 #232 of 3,686 on the Elo list →
The overall rating moves on every match, whatever was picked; a character's rating adds this player's own adjustment on it. Both run from every recorded match since v1.10; how they are worked out is on the Elo list.
Characters played — VF5's own record
| Taka | 42 | 5,390 | 2,965 | 2,425 | 55.0% |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Wolf | 43 | 3,115 | 1,815 | 1,300 | 58.3% |
| Jeffry | 40 | 759 | 409 | 350 | 53.9% |
| Vanessa | 33 | 9 | 3 | 6 | 33.3% |
| Goh | 33 | 4 | 1 | 3 | 25.0% |
These are the totals VF5 keeps for each character, read from the newest replay stored for it. They cover the player's whole ranked career and take no period.
Inputs per second
2,781 of 4,611 rounds counted9.8 inputs a second (590 a minute) this season. Faster than 94% of the 4,069 regulars with enough rounds counted to compare.
By character played
| Wolf | 10.1 | 607 | 1,708 |
|---|---|---|---|
| Taka | 9.4 | 562 | 1,062 |
| Goh | 9.4 | 564 | 11 |
By opponent's character
| Akira | 10.0 | 599 | 330 |
|---|---|---|---|
| Lau | 10.1 | 606 | 301 |
| Kage | 9.8 | 588 | 264 |
| Lion | 9.5 | 568 | 211 |
| Jacky | 10.1 | 604 | 196 |
| Shun | 9.3 | 559 | 201 |
| Sarah | 9.8 | 591 | 137 |
| Vanessa | 9.6 | 574 | 155 |
| Jeffry | 10.1 | 605 | 60 |
| Brad | 9.6 | 574 | 179 |
| Wolf | 10.3 | 619 | 130 |
| Goh | 10.3 | 620 | 123 |
| Eileen | 9.3 | 561 | 97 |
| El Blaze | 9.4 | 565 | 86 |
| Taka | 10.2 | 611 | 111 |
| Aoi | 10.1 | 604 | 51 |
| Lei Fei | 10.2 | 612 | 62 |
| Jean | 9.7 | 581 | 41 |
| Pai | 9.7 | 580 | 33 |
| Dural | 9.8 | 587 | 13 |
An input is any change on the controller (a new stick direction, a button pressed or released) from the bell to the moment a round is decided, over the live time of the round. Only rounds whose inputs have been decoded are counted. Who you face changes the pace too: see the inputs-per-second article under News.
Against each character
| Akira | 132 | 63 | 69 | 47.7% | -5.0 |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Lau | 119 | 72 | 47 | 60.5% | +7.5 |
| Kage | 101 | 54 | 47 | 53.5% | +3.6 |
| Lion | 79 | 52 | 27 | 65.8% | +11.6 |
| Jacky | 76 | 39 | 37 | 51.3% | -0.3 |
| Shun | 74 | 32 | 42 | 43.2% | -16.8 |
| Sarah | 72 | 43 | 29 | 59.7% | +2.3 |
| Vanessa | 63 | 35 | 28 | 55.6% | +1.3 |
| Jeffry | 57 | 25 | 32 | 43.9% | -8.6 |
| Brad | 52 | 25 | 27 | 48.1% | -7.8 |
| Wolf | 51 | 26 | 25 | 51.0% | -2.0 |
| Goh | 50 | 37 | 13 | 74.0% | +17.1 |
| Eileen | 44 | 23 | 21 | 52.3% | -1.5 |
| El Blaze | 44 | 18 | 26 | 40.9% | -12.2 |
| Taka | 41 | 26 | 15 | 63.4% | +11.5 |
| Aoi | 31 | 16 | 15 | 51.6% | -1.4 |
| Lei Fei | 24 | 13 | 11 | 54.2% | -1.6 |
| Jean | 18 | 10 | 8 | 55.6% | +2.7 |
| Pai | 11 | 6 | 5 | 54.5% | -0.0 |
| Dural | 4 | 1 | 3 | 25.0% | -37.4 |
0 of 16 rows differ from what this player's level and their opponents' ranks predict, once the test allows for asking 16 questions at once; about 0.8 would by chance alone.
A matchup row is the particular people played on that character, not the character in general: one strong regular moves it as much as the matchup does.
By ring shape
| Breakable Half Fence | 129 | 70 | 59 | 54.3% | -1.1 |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Half Fence | 125 | 71 | 54 | 56.8% | +4.2 |
| Breakable Full Fence | 122 | 70 | 52 | 57.4% | +4.6 |
| Octagon | 122 | 65 | 57 | 53.3% | -0.8 |
| Open | 117 | 59 | 58 | 50.4% | -2.9 |
| Full Fence | 113 | 59 | 54 | 52.2% | -2.8 |
| Rectangle | 112 | 61 | 51 | 54.5% | -0.8 |
| Low Fence | 108 | 53 | 55 | 49.1% | -4.4 |
| Single Wall | 85 | 49 | 36 | 57.6% | +4.3 |
| Full Fence and Open | 51 | 27 | 24 | 52.9% | -0.8 |
0 of 10 rows differ from what this player's level and their opponents' ranks predict, once the test allows for asking 10 questions at once; about 0.5 would by chance alone.
With or without walls
| Stages | Matches | Win % | Expected | vs expected |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Walls | 723 | 54.8% | 54.2% | +0.5 |
| No walls | 310 | 51.9% | 53.2% | -1.3 |
Walls against open: +1.8 points (95% range -5.0 to +8.7), p 0.600 — no measurable difference.
The fence-and-open stages and Training Room are on neither side, as on the stage report.
How these are tested
- Each match gets an expected result from the two players' ranks, read off the ladder's rank-against-rank win rates, and shifted by one number per player so the expected wins add up to the actual ones. A row's gap is how far above that expectation it sits, against the same measure over the player's other matches.
- Matches against the same opponent are not independent, so each test is widened by how unevenly this player's results fall across the people they played. Rows under 30 decided matches or 10 different opponents on either side carry no test, and each table is corrected for the number of rows tested in it.
- Not adjusted for: how strong an opponent is for their rank. Rank carries most of it; the rest needs a rating model.
Most played opponents
| Tokkovanessa_VF (Rank 42) | 30 | 17 | 13 | 56.7% |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| せろり☆ (Rank 44) | 30 | 13 | 17 | 43.3% |
| ハマラウ (Rank 43) | 25 | 16 | 9 | 64.0% |
| manatsu_7 (Rank 42) | 22 | 9 | 13 | 40.9% |
| 苦道訓|kudoukun_goh (Rank 41) | 22 | 18 | 4 | 81.8% |
| 空き缶。 (Rank 41) | 21 | 12 | 9 | 57.1% |
| ミスプロ狼＠tenrishoko (Rank 41) | 17 | 12 | 5 | 70.6% |
| おかし (Rank 41) | 15 | 6 | 9 | 40.0% |
| たまつばき (Rank 42) | 15 | 8 | 7 | 53.3% |
| 希望カゲ (Rank 41) | 15 | 12 | 3 | 80.0% |
| 自作マﾆア＠むめい。 (Rank 41) | 15 | 7 | 8 | 46.7% |
| しろくまーじ (Rank 43) | 14 | 8 | 6 | 57.1% |
| あむざん (Rank 43) | 13 | 3 | 10 | 23.1% |
| jinmenusagi (Rank 43) | 12 | 8 | 4 | 66.7% |
| ひかる (Rank 40) | 12 | 6 | 6 | 50.0% |
| ヤートン (Rank 40) | 12 | 8 | 4 | 66.7% |
| VIPism『稲庭飯』 (Rank 43) | 11 | 6 | 5 | 54.5% |
| おさげ (Rank 43) | 11 | 6 | 5 | 54.5% |
| CLEARCARE (Rank 41) | 10 | 7 | 3 | 70.0% |
| kothiyasanae (Rank 45) | 10 | 2 | 8 | 20.0% |
| バルゴ・デミーラ (Rank 41) | 10 | 1 | 9 | 10.0% |
| junkman (Rank 38) | 9 | 7 | 2 | 77.8% |
| spacex_falcon_heavy (Rank 40) | 9 | 7 | 2 | 77.8% |
| カシン★T-ARASHI (Rank 41) | 9 | 4 | 5 | 44.4% |
| 愛蒔らぶり (Rank 41) | 9 | 6 | 3 | 66.7% |
Most played opponents, most recent first
| 空き缶。 (Rank 41) | 2026/10/17 | 21 | 12 | 9 | 57.1% |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| せろり☆ (Rank 44) | 2026/10/17 | 30 | 13 | 17 | 43.3% |
| 自作マﾆア＠むめい。 (Rank 41) | 2026/10/16 | 15 | 7 | 8 | 46.7% |
| ミスプロ狼＠tenrishoko (Rank 41) | 2026/10/15 | 17 | 12 | 5 | 70.6% |
| Tokkovanessa_VF (Rank 42) | 2026/10/15 | 30 | 17 | 13 | 56.7% |
| kothiyasanae (Rank 45) | 2026/10/10 | 10 | 2 | 8 | 20.0% |
| 希望カゲ (Rank 41) | 2026/10/06 | 15 | 12 | 3 | 80.0% |
| jinmenusagi (Rank 43) | 2026/09/29 | 12 | 8 | 4 | 66.7% |
| ハマラウ (Rank 43) | 2026/09/17 | 25 | 16 | 9 | 64.0% |
| しろくまーじ (Rank 43) | 2026/09/15 | 14 | 8 | 6 | 57.1% |
| おさげ (Rank 43) | 2026/09/15 | 11 | 6 | 5 | 54.5% |
| カシン★T-ARASHI (Rank 41) | 2026/09/13 | 9 | 4 | 5 | 44.4% |
| 苦道訓|kudoukun_goh (Rank 41) | 2026/09/13 | 22 | 18 | 4 | 81.8% |
| あむざん (Rank 43) | 2026/09/12 | 13 | 3 | 10 | 23.1% |
| 愛蒔らぶり (Rank 41) | 2026/09/12 | 9 | 6 | 3 | 66.7% |
| ひかる (Rank 40) | 2026/09/02 | 12 | 6 | 6 | 50.0% |
| spacex_falcon_heavy (Rank 40) | 2026/08/31 | 9 | 7 | 2 | 77.8% |
| ヤートン (Rank 40) | 2026/08/30 | 12 | 8 | 4 | 66.7% |
| manatsu_7 (Rank 42) | 2026/08/17 | 22 | 9 | 13 | 40.9% |
| CLEARCARE (Rank 41) | 2026/08/02 | 10 | 7 | 3 | 70.0% |
| たまつばき (Rank 42) | 2026/07/29 | 15 | 8 | 7 | 53.3% |
| おかし (Rank 41) | 2026/07/04 | 15 | 6 | 9 | 40.0% |
| VIPism『稲庭飯』 (Rank 43) | 2026/06/04 | 11 | 6 | 5 | 54.5% |
| バルゴ・デミーラ (Rank 41) | 2026/04/24 | 10 | 1 | 9 | 10.0% |
| junkman (Rank 38) | 2026/04/22 | 9 | 7 | 2 | 77.8% |
Round openings
Every character
| backdash into evade up | 320 | 7.5% |
|---|---|---|
| Screw Hook63214P | 222 | 5.2% |
| backdash into evade down | 190 | 4.4% |
| Rolling Savate6K+G into Death ScytheK+G | 178 | 4.2% |
| Morotezuki66P | 174 | 4.1% |
| Elbow Butt | 141 | 3.3% |
| kickK | 132 | 3.1% |
| forward dash into Screw Hook63214P | 119 | 2.8% |
| evade up into crouch dash forward | 89 | 2.1% |
| crouch dash forward into evade down | 86 | 2.0% |
| Tsuppari 2PP into Tsuppari 3PPP | 84 | 2.0% |
| punchP into Tsuppari 2PP | 78 | 1.8% |
| crouch into Shita Harite2P | 66 | 1.5% |
| crouch into Low Hammer2P | 61 | 1.4% |
| punchP | 61 | 1.4% |
445 further openings account for the other 2,277 rounds.
Counted from 1,059 of the 1,143 matches played. The rest were not pulled for openings.
Wolf
- Career
- 1,815–1,300 · 58.3%
- This season
- 594 matches · 56.7%
- Peak rank
- 43
First hit in 50.2% of 2,078 rounds. Won 57.5% of the rounds they struck first, 52.3% of the rounds they were struck first.
Significant Tells
- In round 1: attacks straight away in 58.3% of rounds, against 34.7% in their other rounds.
- Against Taka: attacks straight away in 66.0% of rounds, against 39.2% against everyone else.
- When ahead: attacks straight away in 37.8% of rounds, against 31.0% when level or behind.
- In round 1: opens with “4P Elbow Butt” in 13.8% of rounds, against 4.3% in their other rounds.
- Against Eileen: opens with “backdash into evade up” in 22.6% of rounds, against 5.4% against everyone else.
- After opening the round before with “forward dash into 63214P Screw Hook”: opens with “forward dash into 63214P Screw Hook” in 10.6% of rounds, against 3.5% after anything else.
| Screw Hook63214P | 222 | 10.6% |
|---|---|---|
| Rolling Savate6K+G into Death ScytheK+G | 178 | 8.5% |
| Elbow Butt4P | 139 | 6.6% |
| backdash into evade up | 123 | 5.9% |
| forward dash into Screw Hook63214P | 119 | 5.7% |
| backdash into evade down | 92 | 4.4% |
| crouch into Low Hammer2P | 61 | 2.9% |
| evade up into crouch dash forward | 52 | 2.5% |
| Screw Hook63214P into Screw Lariat63214PP | 47 | 2.2% |
| forward movement into Elbow Butt4P | 46 | 2.2% |
| crouch into Heavy Middle Kick3K+G | 40 | 1.9% |
| Elbow Butt4P into punchP | 39 | 1.9% |
| punchP into Jab StraightPP | 39 | 1.9% |
| crouch dash forward into evade down | 37 | 1.8% |
| evade down into Elbow Butt4P | 35 | 1.7% |
208 further openings account for the other 828 rounds.
Counted from 516 of the 594 matches played. The rest were not pulled for openings.
By stage type
Record against each character on walled and open stages, as Wolf
| Opponent | Walls | No walls | Walls vs open, rank-adjusted, pts |
|---|---|---|---|
| Lau | 28–16 · 64% | 11–4 · 73% | too few to test |
| Akira | 20–14 · 59% | 5–7 · 42% | too few to test |
| Kage | 13–13 · 50% | 5–4 · 56% | too few to test |
| Lion | 17–5 · 77% | 8–1 · 89% | too few to test |
| Sarah | 15–7 · 68% | 6–5 · 55% | too few to test |
| Goh | 25–5 · 83% | 2–1 · 67% | too few to test |
| Vanessa | 17–11 · 61% | 2–5 · 29% | too few to test |
| Shun | 3–11 · 21% | 6–10 · 38% | too few to test |
| Brad | 7–8 · 47% | 6–7 · 46% | too few to test |
| Jacky | 9–8 · 53% | 3–0 · 100% | too few to test |
| Taka | 11–4 · 73% | 3–0 · 100% | too few to test |
| El Blaze | 7–9 · 44% | 1–1 · 50% | too few to test |
Walls: every fence, rectangle and octagon stage. No walls: open, low fence and single-wall stages. Snow Mountain and Training Room are left out.
78 of this character's decided matches could not be matched to the round-openings pull, which is what says the character was played, and are left out of this table.
Taka
- Career
- 2,965–2,425 · 55.0%
- This season
- 330 matches · 49.7%
- Peak rank
- 42
First hit in 58.1% of 1,290 rounds. Won 54.3% of the rounds they struck first, 46.1% of the rounds they were struck first.
Significant Tells
- In round 1: attacks straight away in 76.5% of rounds, against 36.3% in their other rounds.
- Against El Blaze: backs off first in 39.3% of rounds, against 20.5% against everyone else.
- In round 1: opens with “66P Morotezuki” in 27.8% of rounds, against 8.6% in their other rounds.
- Against El Blaze: opens with “K kick” in 26.2% of rounds, against 9.4% against everyone else.
- On Open stages: opens with “K kick” in 20.9% of rounds, against 8.7% on the other stages.
| Morotezuki66P | 174 | 13.4% |
|---|---|---|
| kickK | 132 | 10.2% |
| Tsuppari 2PP into Tsuppari 3PPP | 84 | 6.5% |
| punchP into Tsuppari 2PP | 78 | 6.0% |
| backdash into evade up | 69 | 5.3% |
| crouch into Shita Harite2P | 66 | 5.1% |
| backdash into evade down | 47 | 3.6% |
| Morotezuki66P into punchP | 41 | 3.1% |
| forward movement into Tsuppari 2PP | 32 | 2.5% |
| punchP | 28 | 2.1% |
| forward movement into Tsuppari 3PPP | 26 | 2.0% |
| evade down into guardG | 23 | 1.8% |
| crouch dash forward into evade down | 21 | 1.6% |
| crouch dash forward into guardG | 15 | 1.1% |
| backward movement into backdash | 14 | 1.1% |
145 further openings account for the other 450 rounds.
Counted from 324 of the 330 matches played. The rest were not pulled for openings.
By stage type
Record against each character on walled and open stages, as Taka
| Opponent | Walls | No walls | Walls vs open, rank-adjusted, pts |
|---|---|---|---|
| Akira | 14–19 · 42% | 5–6 · 45% | too few to test |
| Jacky | 8–10 · 44% | 4–5 · 44% | too few to test |
| Shun | 9–8 · 53% | 3–2 · 60% | too few to test |
| Lau | 9–4 · 69% | 2–7 · 22% | too few to test |
| Lion | 10–7 · 59% | 4–5 · 44% | too few to test |
| Kage | 9–5 · 64% | 4–5 · 44% | too few to test |
Walls: every fence, rectangle and octagon stage. No walls: open, low fence and single-wall stages. Snow Mountain and Training Room are left out.
6 of this character's decided matches could not be matched to the round-openings pull, which is what says the character was played, and are left out of this table.
Jeffry
- Career
- 409–350 · 53.9%
- This season
- 209 matches · 53.6%
- Peak rank
- 40
First hit in 61.2% of 843 rounds. Won 53.5% of the rounds they struck first, 48.3% of the rounds they were struck first.
Significant Tells
- In round 1: attacks straight away in 20.1% of rounds, against 6.4% in their other rounds.
- Against Jeffry: evades first in 26.2% of rounds, against 14.5% against everyone else.
- After opening the round before by backing off: backs off first in 56.5% of rounds, against 36.6% after anything else.
- In round 1: opens with “P punch into PP Double Knuckle” in 12.9% of rounds, against 2.0% in their other rounds.
| backdash into evade up | 128 | 15.1% |
|---|---|---|
| backdash into evade down | 51 | 6.0% |
| crouch into Low Knuckle2P | 46 | 5.4% |
| punchP into Double KnucklePP | 40 | 4.7% |
| crouch dash forward into evade down | 27 | 3.2% |
| evade up into crouch dash forward | 24 | 2.8% |
| evade down into evade up | 17 | 2.0% |
| evade down into guardG | 15 | 1.8% |
| evade down into crouch dash forward | 14 | 1.6% |
| crouch dash forward into throw escape | 13 | 1.5% |
| backward movement into guardG | 11 | 1.3% |
| crouch into Ducking Low2K+G | 11 | 1.3% |
| forward movement into Double KnucklePP | 11 | 1.3% |
| backdash into Double Hammer Down43P | 10 | 1.2% |
| backdash into Double KnucklePP | 10 | 1.2% |
173 further openings account for the other 418 rounds.
By stage type
Record against each character on walled and open stages, as Jeffry
| Opponent | Walls | No walls | Walls vs open, rank-adjusted, pts |
|---|---|---|---|
| Jeffry | 4–7 · 36% | 2–8 · 20% | too few to test |
| Sarah | 6–6 · 50% | 5–2 · 71% | too few to test |
| Akira | 4–9 · 31% | 5–2 · 71% | too few to test |
| Jacky | 6–8 · 43% | 3–1 · 75% | too few to test |
Walls: every fence, rectangle and octagon stage. No walls: open, low fence and single-wall stages. Snow Mountain and Training Room are left out.
Vanessa
- Career
- 3–6 · 33.3%
- This season
- 7 matches · 28.6%
- Peak rank
- 33
Significant Tells
Too few rounds to test opener patterns.
| Defensive Style: crouch dash forward into evade down | 4 | 16.7% |
|---|---|---|
| Defensive Style: crouch into Sit Jab2P | 3 | 12.5% |
| Defensive Style: backdash into throw escape | 2 | 8.3% |
| Defensive Style: Parrying High Kick (Deflect) | 1 | 4.2% |
| Defensive Style: Parrying High Kick (Deflect) into Parrying Combination46KP | 1 | 4.2% |
| Defensive Style: Shadow Slicer | 1 | 4.2% |
| Defensive Style: backdash into Bone Crush Middle3K | 1 | 4.2% |
| Defensive Style: backdash into Hind Back Spin KickK+G | 1 | 4.2% |
| Defensive Style: backward movement into evade up | 1 | 4.2% |
| Defensive Style: crouch dash forward into Back Knuckle High6PK | 1 | 4.2% |
| Defensive Style: evade up into punchP | 1 | 4.2% |
| Defensive Style: forward dash into Bone Crush Middle3K | 1 | 4.2% |
| Defensive Style: forward movement into evade up | 1 | 4.2% |
| Offensive Style: backdash into throw escape | 1 | 4.2% |
| Offensive Style: crouch dash forward into Stopping Toe3K | 1 | 4.2% |
3 further openings account for the other 3 rounds.
Goh
- Career
- 1–3 · 25.0%
- This season
- 3 matches · 33.3%
- Peak rank
- 33
Significant Tells
Too few rounds to test opener patterns.
| crouch dash forward into guardG | 3 | 27.3% |
|---|---|---|
| Soukyu46P into forward dash | 1 | 9.1% |
| Soukyu46P into forward movement | 1 | 9.1% |
| backdash into Karura4P+K | 1 | 9.1% |
| backdash into Maegeri3K | 1 | 9.1% |
| crouch dash forward into evade down | 1 | 9.1% |
| crouch dash forward into throwP+G | 1 | 9.1% |
| crouch into Ni'oudaoshi3K+G | 1 | 9.1% |
| forward movement into evade up | 1 | 9.1% |
How these are tested
A tell is a habit in how this player starts a round: something they do clearly more often in one situation than in the others — backing off more in round 2, say, or opening with one move more against one character. Each situation is compared with how they actually opened their rounds, and a tell is listed only if it is too strong to be a fluke even after allowing for how many situations were checked on this page. Anything weaker is left out, so a character with no tells listed may still have habits, just none the data can show for certain.
- An opener is filed by what the player did first: attack (a named move or any button), move in (forward dash, forward movement or crouch dash forward), wait (guard, crouch or no input), back off (backdash, crouch dash back or backward movement) or evade. Each is also tested as the exact opener: the character's five most used, and the rest together.
- Up to ten things known before a round starts are tested against the opener: which round it is, the opponent's character, the ring shape, how the player opened the round before and how the opponent did, whether they won or lost the round before, who landed the first hit of the round before, whether they go into it ahead, level or behind, and -- where a Shun is playing -- the drink points he starts it on: the player's own if they are Shun, the opponent's if they face one. Each is a chi-square test, divided by how much more alike the rounds of one match are than separate rounds would be, and never made more generous by it. Checked by shuffling the data so that nothing is there: the tests then find something no more often than chance allows.
- Round results and drink points come from each match's round record, matched to its openers by the two players and the date. A match whose record is missing, lacks rounds the openers have, or does not add up to the match's result sits out of those four tests only. These four are compared only between rounds of the same number -- the score and the drinks follow from which round it is (every match starts level and on no drinks), so a pattern that is only “the first round is different” is not counted as one of theirs. Drawn rounds count toward neither side of the score, and the round after one has no previous result. Drink points are grouped as on the Shun report (none, 1–4, 5–9 and so on), with neighbouring groups joined where they are thin.
- A character is tested with at least 300 rounds from 30 matches. Rare cases are pooled before testing, and a pattern is only named where it holds up after correcting for every test on this page (47 here; about 2.4 would come up by chance alone before the correction).
- Walls against open is tested per opponent with 30+ matches and 10+ different players on each side, allowing for both players' ranks, and corrected across every player page at once: 0 of 2,552 hold up. With stages shuffled at random: 0 of 2,651–2,673.
Tests behind each character's list
- Wolf: 6 of 17 tests hold up
- Taka: 5 of 15 tests hold up
- Jeffry: 4 of 15 tests hold up
- Vanessa: not tested (too few rounds)
- Goh: not tested (too few rounds)