Virtua Fighter 5 REVO · v1.10 · Region: Asia
spacex_falcon_heavy
Elo rating
Overall, and on each character played 10+ times1886 #164 of 3,686 on the Elo list →
The overall rating moves on every match, whatever was picked; a character's rating adds this player's own adjustment on it. Both run from every recorded match since v1.10; how they are worked out is on the Elo list.
Characters played — VF5's own record
| Shun | 43 | 2,813 | 1,686 | 1,127 | 59.9% |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Brad | 42 | 2,787 | 1,533 | 1,254 | 55.0% |
| Taka | 37 | 243 | 182 | 61 | 74.9% |
| Jeffry | 33 | 40 | 19 | 21 | 47.5% |
| Wolf | — | 6 | 5 | 1 | 83.3% |
These are the totals VF5 keeps for each character, read from the newest replay stored for it. They cover the player's whole ranked career and take no period.
Inputs per second
3,410 of 6,029 rounds counted7.2 inputs a second (431 a minute) this season. Faster than 51% of the 4,069 regulars with enough rounds counted to compare.
By character played
| Brad | 7.2 | 430 | 2,546 |
|---|---|---|---|
| Shun | 7.3 | 441 | 786 |
| Jeffry | 6.5 | 387 | 78 |
By opponent's character
| Akira | 7.3 | 437 | 421 |
|---|---|---|---|
| Jacky | 7.2 | 430 | 330 |
| Lau | 7.2 | 430 | 372 |
| Kage | 7.3 | 437 | 279 |
| Brad | 6.8 | 410 | 280 |
| Vanessa | 7.4 | 443 | 114 |
| Lion | 7.4 | 442 | 185 |
| Aoi | 7.0 | 422 | 200 |
| Goh | 7.1 | 425 | 180 |
| Shun | 7.5 | 447 | 160 |
| Lei Fei | 6.8 | 411 | 82 |
| Jeffry | 7.1 | 426 | 107 |
| El Blaze | 7.2 | 432 | 104 |
| Sarah | 7.3 | 437 | 144 |
| Eileen | 6.8 | 411 | 117 |
| Pai | 7.5 | 447 | 91 |
| Wolf | 7.4 | 446 | 132 |
| Jean | 6.9 | 413 | 18 |
| Taka | 7.1 | 426 | 78 |
| Dural | 7.9 | 473 | 16 |
An input is any change on the controller (a new stick direction, a button pressed or released) from the bell to the moment a round is decided, over the live time of the round. Only rounds whose inputs have been decoded are counted. Who you face changes the pace too: see the inputs-per-second article under News.
Against each character
| Akira | 177 | 98 | 79 | 55.4% | -1.3 |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Jacky | 153 | 85 | 68 | 55.6% | -0.0 |
| Lau | 151 | 63 | 88 | 41.7% | -13.3 |
| Kage | 136 | 78 | 58 | 57.4% | +3.6 |
| Brad | 115 | 66 | 49 | 57.4% | +1.2 |
| Vanessa | 87 | 49 | 38 | 56.3% | -1.8 |
| Lion | 83 | 51 | 32 | 61.5% | +8.2 |
| Aoi | 73 | 36 | 37 | 49.3% | -8.3 |
| Goh | 73 | 36 | 37 | 49.3% | -1.9 |
| Shun | 72 | 48 | 24 | 66.7% | +7.8 |
| Lei Fei | 58 | 40 | 18 | 69.0% | +15.0 |
| Jeffry | 56 | 28 | 28 | 50.0% | -11.7 |
| El Blaze | 51 | 30 | 21 | 58.8% | -1.9 |
| Sarah | 51 | 32 | 19 | 62.8% | +8.1 |
| Eileen | 47 | 29 | 18 | 61.7% | +2.7 |
| Pai | 38 | 26 | 12 | 68.4% | +5.4 |
| Wolf | 37 | 23 | 14 | 62.2% | +9.3 |
| Jean | 28 | 14 | 14 | 50.0% | -0.2 |
| Taka | 27 | 14 | 13 | 51.9% | -5.5 |
| Dural | 4 | 3 | 1 | 75.0% | +25.2 |
0 of 17 rows differ from what this player's level and their opponents' ranks predict, once the test allows for asking 17 questions at once; about 0.9 would by chance alone.
A matchup row is the particular people played on that character, not the character in general: one strong regular moves it as much as the matchup does.
By ring shape
| Low Fence | 177 | 98 | 79 | 55.4% | +2.0 |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Rectangle | 175 | 95 | 80 | 54.3% | -3.6 |
| Single Wall | 150 | 80 | 70 | 53.3% | -3.8 |
| Octagon | 149 | 89 | 60 | 59.7% | +4.7 |
| Breakable Full Fence | 147 | 89 | 58 | 60.5% | +4.2 |
| Open | 147 | 82 | 65 | 55.8% | +1.3 |
| Breakable Half Fence | 142 | 77 | 65 | 54.2% | +0.1 |
| Half Fence | 139 | 69 | 70 | 49.6% | -7.0 |
| Full Fence | 121 | 73 | 48 | 60.3% | +1.8 |
| Full Fence and Open | 105 | 59 | 46 | 56.2% | -0.7 |
0 of 10 rows differ from what this player's level and their opponents' ranks predict, once the test allows for asking 10 questions at once; about 0.5 would by chance alone.
With or without walls
| Stages | Matches | Win % | Expected | vs expected |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Walls | 873 | 56.4% | 56.4% | -0.1 |
| No walls | 474 | 54.9% | 54.9% | -0.1 |
Walls against open: +0.0 points (95% range -5.5 to +5.6), p 0.999 — no measurable difference.
The fence-and-open stages and Training Room are on neither side, as on the stage report.
How these are tested
- Each match gets an expected result from the two players' ranks, read off the ladder's rank-against-rank win rates, and shifted by one number per player so the expected wins add up to the actual ones. A row's gap is how far above that expectation it sits, against the same measure over the player's other matches.
- Matches against the same opponent are not independent, so each test is widened by how unevenly this player's results fall across the people they played. Rows under 30 decided matches or 10 different opponents on either side carry no test, and each table is corrected for the number of rows tested in it.
- Not adjusted for: how strong an opponent is for their rank. Rank carries most of it; the rest needs a rating model.
Most played opponents
| manatsu_7 (Rank 43) | 42 | 12 | 30 | 28.6% |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| jinmenusagi (Rank 42) | 34 | 14 | 20 | 41.2% |
| 藪からＢＯＹ (Rank 43) | 28 | 15 | 13 | 53.6% |
| ス～パ～オヤツマ～ン (Rank 42) | 25 | 17 | 8 | 68.0% |
| shenron0321 (Rank 42) | 24 | 12 | 12 | 50.0% |
| 지금바다가면죽습니다. (Rank 39) | 24 | 20 | 4 | 83.3% |
| gucchi_1222 (Rank 43) | 22 | 8 | 14 | 36.4% |
| ひらがなであおき (Rank 41) | 19 | 11 | 8 | 57.9% |
| シエロJ (Rank 41) | 19 | 7 | 12 | 36.8% |
| 愛蒔らぶり (Rank 42) | 19 | 8 | 11 | 42.1% |
| マハリータまるこ (Rank 40) | 17 | 10 | 7 | 58.8% |
| k-wofs (Rank 41) | 16 | 9 | 7 | 56.2% |
| こば次狼/covajiro (Rank 44) | 15 | 5 | 10 | 33.3% |
| こんにちわアキラ (Rank 42) | 15 | 2 | 13 | 13.3% |
| Aki (Rank 38) | 14 | 7 | 7 | 50.0% |
| P式截拳道こくとう (Rank 42) | 14 | 7 | 7 | 50.0% |
| paudar1026 (Rank 40) | 14 | 9 | 5 | 64.3% |
| ひかる (Rank 41) | 14 | 4 | 10 | 28.6% |
| グリやん☆ (Rank 42) | 14 | 7 | 7 | 50.0% |
| ちび太★らふぁ～る (Rank 41) | 13 | 8 | 5 | 61.5% |
| NEWTYPE (Rank 38) | 12 | 9 | 3 | 75.0% |
| ctraum (Rank 39) | 12 | 7 | 5 | 58.3% |
| fukuchan_tenjin (Rank 40) | 12 | 9 | 3 | 75.0% |
| おそろしく早いビート (Rank 40) | 11 | 4 | 7 | 36.4% |
| ﾗｰﾒｿﾏｿ (Rank 38) | 11 | 7 | 4 | 63.6% |
Most played opponents, most recent first
| jinmenusagi (Rank 42) | 2026/10/18 | 34 | 14 | 20 | 41.2% |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| ス～パ～オヤツマ～ン (Rank 42) | 2026/10/18 | 25 | 17 | 8 | 68.0% |
| manatsu_7 (Rank 43) | 2026/10/17 | 42 | 12 | 30 | 28.6% |
| ctraum (Rank 39) | 2026/10/15 | 12 | 7 | 5 | 58.3% |
| おそろしく早いビート (Rank 40) | 2026/10/11 | 11 | 4 | 7 | 36.4% |
| shenron0321 (Rank 42) | 2026/10/11 | 24 | 12 | 12 | 50.0% |
| k-wofs (Rank 41) | 2026/10/11 | 16 | 9 | 7 | 56.2% |
| 藪からＢＯＹ (Rank 43) | 2026/09/02 | 28 | 15 | 13 | 53.6% |
| 愛蒔らぶり (Rank 42) | 2026/09/02 | 19 | 8 | 11 | 42.1% |
| NEWTYPE (Rank 38) | 2026/08/31 | 12 | 9 | 3 | 75.0% |
| マハリータまるこ (Rank 40) | 2026/08/30 | 17 | 10 | 7 | 58.8% |
| ひらがなであおき (Rank 41) | 2026/08/25 | 19 | 11 | 8 | 57.9% |
| こば次狼/covajiro (Rank 44) | 2026/08/25 | 15 | 5 | 10 | 33.3% |
| 지금바다가면죽습니다. (Rank 39) | 2026/08/04 | 24 | 20 | 4 | 83.3% |
| ちび太★らふぁ～る (Rank 41) | 2026/07/24 | 13 | 8 | 5 | 61.5% |
| ひかる (Rank 41) | 2026/07/17 | 14 | 4 | 10 | 28.6% |
| gucchi_1222 (Rank 43) | 2026/07/10 | 22 | 8 | 14 | 36.4% |
| シエロJ (Rank 41) | 2026/07/03 | 19 | 7 | 12 | 36.8% |
| こんにちわアキラ (Rank 42) | 2026/06/24 | 15 | 2 | 13 | 13.3% |
| Aki (Rank 38) | 2026/06/14 | 14 | 7 | 7 | 50.0% |
| paudar1026 (Rank 40) | 2026/06/14 | 14 | 9 | 5 | 64.3% |
| P式截拳道こくとう (Rank 42) | 2026/06/07 | 14 | 7 | 7 | 50.0% |
| fukuchan_tenjin (Rank 40) | 2026/06/06 | 12 | 9 | 3 | 75.0% |
| ﾗｰﾒｿﾏｿ (Rank 38) | 2026/04/20 | 11 | 7 | 4 | 63.6% |
| グリやん☆ (Rank 42) | 2026/04/20 | 14 | 7 | 7 | 50.0% |
Round openings
Every character
| backdash into guardG | 329 | 5.6% |
|---|---|---|
| punchP | 270 | 4.6% |
| forward movement into punchP | 154 | 2.6% |
| backdash into Stop Kick4K | 138 | 2.3% |
| backdash into Kasen Gyou'in6P+K+G | 136 | 2.3% |
| Middle Spin Kick66K into Ten Kao6K | 131 | 2.2% |
| backdash into offensive move | 124 | 2.1% |
| Gyou'in Haishu3P | 114 | 1.9% |
| evade up into forward dash | 113 | 1.9% |
| evade down into forward dash | 109 | 1.9% |
| forward movement into evade up | 105 | 1.8% |
| guardG | 98 | 1.7% |
| crouch into Fukuchougeki2P | 96 | 1.6% |
| crouch into Sit Jab2P | 94 | 1.6% |
| Honshin Rensenkyaku4K+G | 87 | 1.5% |
672 further openings account for the other 3,801 rounds.
Counted from 1,470 of the 1,517 matches played. The rest were not pulled for openings.
Brad
- Career
- 1,533–1,254 · 55.0%
- This season
- 951 matches · 55.4%
- Peak rank
- 42
First hit in 47.1% of 3,578 rounds. Won 55.8% of the rounds they struck first, 49.2% of the rounds they were struck first.
Significant Tells
- In round 1: waits first in 11.2% of rounds, against 8.2% in their other rounds.
- Against Shun: moves in first in 56.1% of rounds, against 19.9% against everyone else.
- On Single Wall stages: backs off first in 46.7% of rounds, against 30.5% on the other stages.
- After opening the round before by backing off: backs off first in 47.7% of rounds, against 27.7% after anything else.
- After winning a round: attacks straight away in 28.9% of rounds, against 22.7% after losing one.
- In round 3: opens with “backdash into 4K Stop Kick” in 5.7% of rounds, against 3.1% in their other rounds.
- Against Brad: opens with “P punch” in 18.1% of rounds, against 4.8% against everyone else.
- On Single Wall stages: opens with “backdash into G guard” in 15.2% of rounds, against 6.8% on the other stages.
- After opening the round before with “backdash into G guard”: opens with “backdash into G guard” in 16.6% of rounds, against 8.0% after anything else.
- When ahead: opens with “66K Middle Spin Kick into 6K Ten Kao” in 4.9% of rounds, against 2.5% when level or behind.
| backdash into guardG | 287 | 7.8% |
|---|---|---|
| punchP | 220 | 6.0% |
| backdash into Stop Kick4K | 138 | 3.8% |
| Middle Spin Kick66K into Ten Kao6K | 131 | 3.6% |
| forward movement into punchP | 121 | 3.3% |
| evade down into forward dash | 95 | 2.6% |
| crouch into Sit Jab2P | 94 | 2.6% |
| evade up into forward dash | 90 | 2.5% |
| forward movement into evade up | 80 | 2.2% |
| guardG | 69 | 1.9% |
| Sit Jab2P | 63 | 1.7% |
| punchP into Jab StraightPP | 56 | 1.5% |
| punchP into forward movement | 54 | 1.5% |
| backdash into backward movement | 53 | 1.4% |
| no input | 53 | 1.4% |
368 further openings account for the other 2,074 rounds.
Counted from 913 of the 951 matches played. The rest were not pulled for openings.
By stage type
Record against each character on walled and open stages, as Brad
| Opponent | Walls | No walls | Walls vs open, rank-adjusted, pts |
|---|---|---|---|
| Akira | 28–25 · 53% | 17–26 · 40% | +8.5 |
| Lau | 28–31 · 47% | 10–13 · 43% | too few to test |
| Brad | 29–26 · 53% | 15–12 · 56% | too few to test |
| Jacky | 28–24 · 54% | 12–5 · 71% | too few to test |
| Kage | 25–13 · 66% | 11–6 · 65% | too few to test |
| Lion | 18–10 · 64% | 11–9 · 55% | too few to test |
| Goh | 15–13 · 54% | 4–7 · 36% | too few to test |
| Aoi | 18–13 · 58% | 4–9 · 31% | too few to test |
| Shun | 14–5 · 74% | 8–6 · 57% | too few to test |
| El Blaze | 11–7 · 61% | 8–8 · 50% | too few to test |
| Vanessa | 15–10 · 60% | 6–6 · 50% | too few to test |
| Lei Fei | 9–9 · 50% | 12–3 · 80% | too few to test |
| Jeffry | 6–8 · 43% | 9–6 · 60% | too few to test |
| Eileen | 13–1 · 93% | 6–7 · 46% | too few to test |
| Sarah | 12–7 · 63% | 6–3 · 67% | too few to test |
| Wolf | 7–4 · 64% | 6–6 · 50% | too few to test |
| Pai | 7–1 · 88% | 7–4 · 64% | too few to test |
| Taka | 5–6 · 45% | 1–5 · 17% | too few to test |
Nothing reliable: no gap here is bigger than stage luck alone produces.
Walls: every fence, rectangle and octagon stage. No walls: open, low fence and single-wall stages. Snow Mountain and Training Room are left out.
38 of this character's decided matches could not be matched to the round-openings pull, which is what says the character was played, and are left out of this table.
Shun
- Career
- 1,686–1,127 · 59.9%
- This season
- 491 matches · 56.4%
- Peak rank
- 43
First hit in 47.2% of 1,906 rounds. Won 53.4% of the rounds they struck first, 50.5% of the rounds they were struck first.
Significant Tells
- In round 1: waits first in 23.0% of rounds, against 9.4% in their other rounds.
- Against Shun: moves in first in 36.0% of rounds, against 13.0% against everyone else.
- After opening the round before by backing off: backs off first in 45.2% of rounds, against 33.5% after anything else.
- After winning a round: attacks straight away in 43.7% of rounds, against 24.6% after losing one.
- When ahead: attacks straight away in 44.0% of rounds, against 26.4% when level or behind.
- On 1–4 drinks: waits first in 21.0% of rounds, against 8.6% on other drink counts.
- In round 4 or later: opens with “3P Gyou'in Haishu” in 13.6% of rounds, against 3.5% in their other rounds.
- Against Akira: opens with “4K+G Honshin Rensenkyaku” in 11.0% of rounds, against 3.9% against everyone else.
- After opening the round before with “backdash into offensive move”: opens with “backdash into offensive move” in 16.5% of rounds, against 6.9% after anything else.
- After the opponent opened the round before with “backdash into evade up”: opens with “crouch into 2P Fukuchougeki” in 9.2% of rounds, against 3.0% after anything else.
- After winning a round: opens with “4K+G Honshin Rensenkyaku” in 9.3% of rounds, against 1.5% after losing one.
- When ahead: opens with “4K+G Honshin Rensenkyaku” in 11.3% of rounds, against 3.1% when level or behind.
- On 15–19 drinks: opens with “4K+G Honshin Rensenkyaku” in 16.4% of rounds, against 4.5% on other drink counts.
| backdash into Kasen Gyou'in6P+K+G | 136 | 7.1% |
|---|---|---|
| backdash into offensive move | 120 | 6.3% |
| Gyou'in Haishu3P | 114 | 6.0% |
| crouch into Fukuchougeki2P | 96 | 5.0% |
| Honshin Rensenkyaku4K+G | 87 | 4.5% |
| crouch into Haisenchu1P | 54 | 2.8% |
| Getsuga Gakushu46P into Getsuga Gyou'in46PP+K | 51 | 2.7% |
| punchP | 44 | 2.3% |
| backdash into Dokuritsu Kanpai46P+K | 42 | 2.2% |
| forward dash into throwP+G | 42 | 2.2% |
| backdash into guardG | 28 | 1.5% |
| Haisenchu1P | 27 | 1.4% |
| backdash into Kousoku Kouhi17P+K+G | 26 | 1.4% |
| forward dash into evade up | 25 | 1.3% |
| backdash into throwP+G | 23 | 1.2% |
278 further openings account for the other 1,001 rounds.
Counted from 482 of the 491 matches played. The rest were not pulled for openings.
By stage type
Record against each character on walled and open stages, as Shun
| Opponent | Walls | No walls | Walls vs open, rank-adjusted, pts |
|---|---|---|---|
| Kage | 19–23 · 45% | 11–10 · 52% | too few to test |
| Jacky | 25–22 · 53% | 7–11 · 39% | too few to test |
| Akira | 13–7 · 65% | 15–6 · 71% | too few to test |
| Lau | 8–17 · 32% | 3–6 · 33% | too few to test |
| Vanessa | 9–10 · 47% | 7–4 · 64% | too few to test |
| Brad | 8–6 · 57% | 1–2 · 33% | too few to test |
| Shun | 8–2 · 80% | 8–5 · 62% | too few to test |
| Goh | 1–8 · 11% | 8–5 · 62% | too few to test |
| Lion | 10–2 · 83% | 4–2 · 67% | too few to test |
Walls: every fence, rectangle and octagon stage. No walls: open, low fence and single-wall stages. Snow Mountain and Training Room are left out.
9 of this character's decided matches could not be matched to the round-openings pull, which is what says the character was played, and are left out of this table.
Taka
- Career
- 182–61 · 74.9%
- This season
- 54 matches · 66.7%
- Peak rank
- 37
First hit in 44.2% of 206 rounds. Won 58.2% of the rounds they struck first, 59.1% of the rounds they were struck first.
Significant Tells
Too few rounds to test opener patterns.
| backdash into Dohyouwari43P | 19 | 8.8% |
|---|---|---|
| backdash into evade down | 16 | 7.4% |
| backdash into Kachi'age33P+K | 11 | 5.1% |
| backdash into evade up | 10 | 4.7% |
| backdash into Enmamidashi41236P+K | 9 | 4.2% |
| forward movement into punchP | 9 | 4.2% |
| Hiji'ate6P | 8 | 3.7% |
| backdash into guardG | 8 | 3.7% |
| kickK | 8 | 3.7% |
| punchP into Tsuppari 2PP | 8 | 3.7% |
| backdash into throwP+G | 7 | 3.3% |
| forward movement into throwP+G | 7 | 3.3% |
| guardG | 5 | 2.3% |
| backdash into Agyou4P+K+G | 4 | 1.9% |
| crouch into Shita Harite2P | 4 | 1.9% |
61 further openings account for the other 82 rounds.
Jeffry
- Career
- 19–21 · 47.5%
- This season
- 21 matches · 42.9%
- Peak rank
- 33
Significant Tells
Too few rounds to test opener patterns.
| backdash into guardG | 6 | 6.7% |
|---|---|---|
| crouch into Low Knuckle2P | 6 | 6.7% |
| backdash into Megaton Knuckle43P+K | 5 | 5.6% |
| backdash into Scoop Kick4K+G | 3 | 3.3% |
| backdash into evade down | 3 | 3.3% |
| backdash into evade up | 3 | 3.3% |
| crouch into down-back kick1K | 3 | 3.3% |
| evade down into forward dash | 3 | 3.3% |
| guardG | 3 | 3.3% |
| punchP | 3 | 3.3% |
| backdash into backward movement | 2 | 2.2% |
| evade down into Megaton Knuckle43P+K | 2 | 2.2% |
| forward dash into Knee Attack6K | 2 | 2.2% |
| forward movement into Double KnucklePP | 2 | 2.2% |
| forward movement into Heavy Back Knuckle4P | 2 | 2.2% |
41 further openings account for the other 42 rounds.
How these are tested
A tell is a habit in how this player starts a round: something they do clearly more often in one situation than in the others — backing off more in round 2, say, or opening with one move more against one character. Each situation is compared with how they actually opened their rounds, and a tell is listed only if it is too strong to be a fluke even after allowing for how many situations were checked on this page. Anything weaker is left out, so a character with no tells listed may still have habits, just none the data can show for certain.
- An opener is filed by what the player did first: attack (a named move or any button), move in (forward dash, forward movement or crouch dash forward), wait (guard, crouch or no input), back off (backdash, crouch dash back or backward movement) or evade. Each is also tested as the exact opener: the character's five most used, and the rest together.
- Up to ten things known before a round starts are tested against the opener: which round it is, the opponent's character, the ring shape, how the player opened the round before and how the opponent did, whether they won or lost the round before, who landed the first hit of the round before, whether they go into it ahead, level or behind, and -- where a Shun is playing -- the drink points he starts it on: the player's own if they are Shun, the opponent's if they face one. Each is a chi-square test, divided by how much more alike the rounds of one match are than separate rounds would be, and never made more generous by it. Checked by shuffling the data so that nothing is there: the tests then find something no more often than chance allows.
- Round results and drink points come from each match's round record, matched to its openers by the two players and the date. A match whose record is missing, lacks rounds the openers have, or does not add up to the match's result sits out of those four tests only. These four are compared only between rounds of the same number -- the score and the drinks follow from which round it is (every match starts level and on no drinks), so a pattern that is only “the first round is different” is not counted as one of theirs. Drawn rounds count toward neither side of the score, and the round after one has no previous result. Drink points are grouped as on the Shun report (none, 1–4, 5–9 and so on), with neighbouring groups joined where they are thin.
- A character is tested with at least 300 rounds from 30 matches. Rare cases are pooled before testing, and a pattern is only named where it holds up after correcting for every test on this page (35 here; about 1.8 would come up by chance alone before the correction).
- Walls against open is tested per opponent with 30+ matches and 10+ different players on each side, allowing for both players' ranks, and corrected across every player page at once: 0 of 2,552 hold up. With stages shuffled at random: 0 of 2,651–2,673.
Tests behind each character's list
- Brad: 10 of 17 tests hold up
- Shun: 13 of 18 tests hold up
- Taka: not tested (too few rounds)
- Jeffry: not tested (too few rounds)